Unlock the secrets to transforming conflict into genuine connection with our enlightening discussion on Nonviolent Communication (NVC). Join me, Dr. Liz, and our guest, Micah Salaberrios, as we navigate the profound impacts of NVC. We discuss practical advice on avoiding language that implies blame, maintaining empathy during heated interactions, and offer tips on effectively using NVC techniques to navigate difficult conversations.
Micah publishes the podcast “The Art of NVC” which my youngest daughter and I have listened to for years, replaying episodes when we need a refresher. It’s all about improving how you communicate, especially with those you love and care about, using the system of Nonviolent Communication. I wrote to Micah to express my appreciation for his podcast and he agreed to join me on mine!
About Micah Salaberrios
Micah Salaberrios, an expert in the field of Nonviolent Communication, has been teaching the practice since 2016. With a passion for improving the lives of others, he wrote one of the top selling books in Relationship Conflict Resolution, “The Art of Nonviolent Communication”, and hosts a popular podcast, “The Art of NVC”, with over 70,000 downloads. Micah’s belief in the transformative power of NVC has been the driving force behind his work, helping people to resolve conflicts peacefully and fostering deeper understanding in their relationships.
You can find him at https://www.artofnvc.com
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About Dr. Liz
Support the podcast by joining my Patreon at https://patreon.com/HypnotizeMewithDrLiz
Winner of numerous awards including Top 100 Moms in Business, Dr. Liz provides psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, and hypnosis to people wanting a fast, easy way to transform all around the world. She has a PhD in Clinical Psychology, is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC) and has special certification in Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy. Specialty areas include Anxiety, Insomnia, and Deeper Emotional Healing.
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Listened to in over 140 countries, Hypnotize Me is the podcast about hypnosis, transformation, and healing. Certified hypnotherapist and Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Dr. Liz Bonet, discusses hypnosis and interviews professionals doing transformational work
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Transcript
0:00:01 – Dr. Liz
Hey everyone. Dr Liz here, and this is a slightly longer intro than normal, but stick with me here. I know you like to get right to the interviews. I do too. I sometimes skip the intros all together when I’m listening to a podcast.
But if you’re still listening, I am having some problems with enunciation. I had some dental work done and it looks like they’ve damaged the nerve that helps control my tongue, and so it feels like my tongue is not working a lot of the time and often I have to slow down my speech. The S’s are really hard, which you will hear, and sometimes they don’t work at all. So you may hear this in the interview where I may repeat a word. There you go. That’s exactly what it’s like, or a phrase, or it sounds like my enunciation is very soft. I fully believe that nerve can heal and regenerate and I’m doing lots of self-hypnosis for it when I’m meditating, also just giving myself some really positive statements around the myelin sheath is regenerating and it’s nice and plump, and that nerve is nice and plump and my tongue works easily and perfectly to create clear and wonderful speech. Things like that variations on it. I have a hypnosis mentor who created a bypass in his heart, a natural one, with self hypnosis, so all kinds of things are possible. He later had heart surgery and the cardiologist said oh, look at this, you’ve created some kind of bypass, like if you hadn’t done that then you would have had to have the surgery much earlier or you would have had some pretty severe consequences. And so it was confirmed by the cardiologist that he had done this, and I was like wow, marty, his name is Martin Nathan martinnathancom, if you want to work with him. I was like wow, marty, that’s incredible. But also it just reaffirms my belief in what hypnosis can do. That’s my very long intro is going to continue now.
This interview is with Micah Salabarios, who has a wonderful voice. I have been a fan of his podcast for many, many years, as is my daughter, and you’ll hear that at the beginning of the interview. He is an expert on nonviolent communication, so he’s going to share what that is with us, review the steps. We’re going to talk about some scenarios that can apply to some problems that people run into with it, but at its essence, it is a method to deescalate conflict, to turn conflict into connection. We all have conflict in our life that comes up with various people in our life. Some people find that very easy to navigate and other people need a little help, myself included. All right, I hope you’re healthy and safe people and let’s jump into this wonderful interview with Micah. Hi, micah, welcome to the Hypnotize Me podcast.
0:03:28 – Micah
Hey, thanks for having me on Pleasure to be here, yes absolutely.
0:03:32 – Dr. Liz
I was so excited about this interview. I was telling my husband at breakfast oh you know, I can’t wait for 10 o’clock to interview Mic Micah and I was giving him some of the background of how much you’ve influenced my daughter and her friends and what a pleasure that’s actually been to know they’re going to go forward with some better skills around communication in their life.
0:03:58 – Micah
Yeah, it was actually great timing. I think I might have mentioned the email, but I’m writing a book, another book. I have one book out, but I’m writing another book and I have this one.
I was with an editor with Shambhala Publishing and the editor was like she was like who’s you aiming your book for? I’m like everybody, but I was thinking 30 to 50 year old people going through divorces or in marriages. I think you should aim younger. I think it’s like the younger generation that needs to hear this. And then, like three days later, you got that message from you and I was like wow, that’s pretty awesome.
0:04:27 – Dr. Liz
That is, that is yeah, and I have your book. I consider it like Cliff Notes to Marshall Rosenberg.
0:04:35 – Micah
Exactly, that’s what I meant. Yeah, okay, good.
0:04:38 – Dr. Liz
It’s like, oh, this is very easy to pick up and they’re just good reminders about the steps and, yeah know, it’s like a briefer, like a yeah, like a little cliff notes going through it.
0:04:50 – Micah
Yeah, it’s more concise, just like right to the point and maybe like a little updated on some kind of modern era.
0:04:55 – Dr. Liz
Yes, yes, absolutely, Because his I know his work was developed in the 60s and 70s and then I think the original book was published 1999.
0:05:08 – Micah
So it’s wow, that’s right. So you see, like 20, 30 years without that book yeah and that book is amazing it is.
0:05:15 – Dr. Liz
It is, yeah, he used to do workshops and, um, I think, some. Uh, there weren’t a whole lot of online workshops at that time, so it was probably in person Most of the stuff was in person, but then he published that book and so I think it has changed the world.
0:05:31 – Micah
Yeah.
0:05:31 – Dr. Liz
Honestly, yeah, but tell me about your background, because I know very little about you other than the podcast. So I know through some of the stories that you’ve done some. I think it’s film editing or producing, not quite sure. So tell the listeners about your background and how you came to NVC, how you discovered it.
0:05:59 – Micah
Yeah, you know, I’ve always been very creative playing music. That’s what I started in like my twenties. I was playing music, but not very successfully.
But then I had a. I had a raw food business. That was you know doing paying the bills. And then I got into filmmaking and I just got like just such a passion for it in my 30s and then I started doing that and through that I ended up being in San Francisco and working on a documentary and that’s when I discovered NVC. But I also, like I knew I needed NVC because I grew up in a household that was just there was love there.
It wasn’t like this crazy, but it was definitely verbally abusive from day one you know really every verbal trick was used all the time and you know that’s what’s normal. You know it doesn’t feel good, it feels horrible, but like you still do it. You know, even though I know like I didn’t, I don’t think I would ever do it to the degree that was done to me, but even before nbc, but I was still doing it on the subtle way.
The guilt trips, the implying that like bad and wrong to try to get my way like this all the time and then when I was on this documentary, you know, after about like six months we were working side by side every day for like 40 hours a week and then it was great for a while, but after like six months we hadn’t been like clearing the air ever so little things, just building up, building up, building up. And then we were just there’s just like a subtle aggravation, and then everything blew up one day and then I was like thinking I’m leaving the project. And then, uh, she had been taking an nbc course for like three weeks, like one of those you know, in san. You know, San Francisco is, I think, where it started, or it’s definitely a lot of NVC.
There’s where they’re sending yes in California yeah, she’s paying a couple thousand dollars for this course. And then, and then, all of a sudden she was like are you feeling upset? Because you would like more appreciation for all the passion you bring to the project? And it was like exactly how I felt wow, wow, and it was just such a foreign, you know, like when you’re in, it was already heated and she decided to go stop being heated and then switched into that and it just pierced right in there. Actually, tears came to my eyes because I was passionate about the project. And and then, and then, everything, everything got smoothed over and we quickly worked it out and everything was good. And then later she was like oh, I did nbc on you and I was like what’s NVC?
And then and I remember I’d heard about it a few years before and maybe like guy was teaching us a couple things I thought that’s really interesting. But then I just I never but this time I was like oh my gosh. I went, I bought the book and I started reading that book maybe like six times in a row, and then I was driving.
Yeah, it’s a good book, yeah and then I was driving to and back from Oakland to San Francisco every day for this project, and so I was audio, I was audiobooking and learning because I just okay, I just recognized I needed it so bad. My whole family needed it. This was the antidote for the things that we did to each other all the time. But we all love each other, but we would still do this all the time.
0:08:52 – Dr. Liz
We didn’t know how to not yeah, it’s interesting you say that because I don’t know when I discovered probably sometime in graduate school I ran across it or sometime during my couples you know training and studies and stuff how to work with couples, because it’s often used in marital therapy for couples but I was thinking I need a refresher and so I just Googled it up on the podcast app and found your podcast and then started listening to it in the car. And my daughter this was a couple of years ago, but she loved it, oh my gosh. And she would have me pause. And her reaction, her initial reaction was my Dad needs this.
We’re not, that’s her, we’re divorced. So she’s like “My dad and his girlfriend, who was living with him at the time, they need this.” And so we had a conversation about consent to like you know, like you need to ask them if they’re willing to listen to some of this. She was like I could just put it on. I was like, yeah, you could do that too. You could just put it on and ask them to put it on, put it on in the car, or something like that.
Wow, but I think that’s a common reaction of like oh my God, my whole family needs this Right, or my partner needs this, or you know, my sister needs this. Whatever it is, I think they’re not always open to it, Right.
0:10:22 – Micah
Yes, quite often, because nobody thinks they speak violently it’s so true it’s so true, yeah yes, yeah.
0:10:32 – Dr. Liz
And I find too that in your book actually you talk about some of the differences and struggles with having to like calm yourself down. I really appreciated that part of your book, and also in the podcast as well, like, okay, you can’t go back into those old patterns.
0:10:54 – Micah
Oh my gosh they’re there, they’re so fully ingrained like I still. It’s still. It’s still a struggle for me. It’s not like I’ve mastered it. I’m not a master. I’ve just understand the concepts. For some reason, I just understand the concept really like deeply. But in the moment it’s challenging, although I did it. I did it the other day with me and my girlfriend. We were having a struggle and it was just I didn’t, I wasn’t like at this, this stage, I’m not always doing like okay, step one, step two, step three, but I’m just keeping that energy of like okay, do not do anything that says she’s bad or wrong. That’s like the main thing.
Don’t say anything that implies, they’re bad and if I do I apologize like wait, my bad, I didn’t mean to say that.
Let me rephrase that you know, and just doing emergency empathy, it’s like because it was like it was one of those conversations that kind of were going on and for a while you’re like I’m not sure if we’re getting anywhere, but I just kept coming back to okay, let me just try to figure out how she feels and why. And then let me state how I feel and why, without, without you know, saying you’re bad or wrong, and eventually worked it out. And it was great and we never got to too heated when before in my life I would have said something like you’re bad and wrong, this is all your fault.
I would have been implying that at various you know and I probably did a little bit, but it was. But it wasn’t too crazy and I would kind of like reel it in if I started feeling myself.
0:12:16 – Dr. Liz
Yeah, so can you review the steps for us? Just a brief steps, absolutely Just for the listeners. He goes way into these steps in the podcast way more in depth.
NVC Steps
0:12:27 – Micah
Yeah. So step one. So first thing is we bring up, we do NVC when there’s something wrong. We know something’s bothering us, or maybe we think that there’s something bothering somebody else, or maybe there’s something we want to bring up that maybe is very sensitive. So we bring attention to this catalyst using observable facts. So no judgments, no opinions, no evaluations, diagnostics, nothing like that, just uh, just yeah, just observable facts.
Then step two is you bring up how you feel in this moment. It’s how you feel, without, again, without any judgments. It’s gotta be a real feeling, because there’s fake feelings out there. A real feeling is something is like usually one word, and you feel it and you could feel alone on a desert island, and it’s like sad, lonely, scared, um you know, irritable, impatient, stressed, but a fake feeling is something that implies someone is doing something to you and it’s really just a judgment.
Like disrespected, that implies someone’s bad and wrong for disrespecting you. You’re a victim. They should change. You don’t need to change.
Like all that is implied with disrespected doesn’t work. You know, disrespected, abused, neglected all these things are not feelings, they’re judgments. So so, yeah, each step has like these, these like challenges and these easy to fall into traps. Yes.
So step one, bring up the whatever’s brought in with observable effects. Step two, express how you feel authentically to. The more authentic you are, the more vulnerable you are, the more it the other person will believe you and feel connected to you and trust you. And then it’s just, it makes everything much easier.
And then the third step is to express why you feel the way you do, which is always based on your own beliefs, values, what’s important to you, and it’s never about, it’s never like I feel this way because of you, because ultimately, we’re responsible for how we feel, because we’re the ones who get to interpret what happens. So like, like I would.
The example I always use is if someone like stands you up for a date, like you have a date and they don’t show or they cancel last second. Now you might get sad and you can eat on the outside, look like, yes, you’re sad because of what they did, but the reality is, if you didn’t want to go on that date and they canceled, you’d be like winning, that’s true. So what changed? Your perceptions changed. You’re the one, so it depends on you. It’s always. It always is like that. It’s irrelevant of the circumstances. How you feel is always dependent on how you are interpreting things. So you are responsible, for it doesn’t mean that, like you know, it’s okay to abuse people and be crazy, but it just means like, ultimately, you are responsible, so you don’t blame them. So that’s why you speak in that way. You say I feel this happened, I feel this way because I have this value, or this is important to me, or, um, I would really like you know.
And then the last part is the request, specific request, because vague requests. You know that’s another trap. Could you be a little more nice to your sister? Or could you clean up a little bit more about the house? Or could you be a little bit more respectful? Like what is a little bit more? Like 1% more, 2% more? What does that look like? How long do I got? All these questions are not answered, and so if we agree to something like that, we don’t even know what we’re agreeing to, but in the moment it might feel like, okay, we accomplished something, but you didn’t really accomplish anything. It needs to be specific. Could you not cuss inside the house? Or could you clean up your room every Monday when you get home from school? Specific things.
But there’s three types of requests too. So you know, because language is nuanced communications are nuanced. In the real world, when you have an issue, it’s usually different, it’s usually unique and there’s some.
So the three requests are there’s the action-based one, where you take out the trash in the next 10 minutes, right, those are probably the easiest and clearest. But then there’s a lot of times you don’t need a solution. All you really need to do is bring attention to the issue, and that’s what I call the connection-based request. So you’re just saying, you know, like you said this comment last night I’m feeling. I’m feeling sad because the why, because I don’t really understand what you meant and I want to. Or I’m feeling sad and I don’t even know why. But basically I just want to let you know that I’m feeling sad and then cause you don’t know the solution, but you just want to share what happened.
Sometimes that’s all it needs, just awareness. Like, awareness is the shining of the light. So so the connection based requests are sometimes like, like, does that make? Like you go through the other steps and then go? Does that make sense to you? Or do you understand where I’m coming from? Or I just wanted to let you know that, and that is very helpful a lot of times. And that’s helpful too, because a lot of times and when you’re doing nvc, it’s not just one statement. Usually that’s a good opening statement that just brings attention to the situation and now the conversation can start and maybe, after a bit of back and forth, there’s an action-based request later.
0:17:26 – Dr. Liz
But sometimes you don’t want to start off with this.
0:17:28 – Micah
Here’s the problem. I would need you to never do that again. It’s like whoa.
0:17:31 – Dr. Liz
Well, I see the connection-based request and, again, I’m not an expert in NVC. I would consider you an expert in NVC, but I would see it as. Would you be willing to talk about this with me?
0:17:44 – Micah
Yeah, that’s a great one. Yes.
0:17:46 – Dr. Liz
Yes.
0:17:47 – Micah
Yeah, exactly Perfect, I’ll use that one and then the last one is clarity. Clarity Because sometimes you’re just like, okay, this thing happened and I’m not going to jump to the conclusion that you’re a terrible person and you’re trying to ruin everything.
Tell me you know this is what we do, though. Right, we do, we totally do. Yes, so you say you know? Um? Can you help me understand what I like this clarity to ask for clarity. Why did this happen? Can you help me understand? To explain this to me? Yeah, and then? No matter how good your nvc is, people can interpret it however they want and they’re not always going to interpret it correctly and they can get offended.
And as soon as someone is triggered, then NVC does not work. It can be perfect NVC and then like, just beautiful, it’s just poetry. But they’re just like why are you trying to control me all the time? And you’re just like I’m going to say the sentence again no, no, no, no, don’t repeat yourself ever.
0:18:42 – Dr. Liz
I love that you talk about this because I remember giving the actual handout to my husband, the second husband. We like to call him the newish husband. It’s been married about five years now, but probably. I was searching up NVC at the time to like work out some communication stuff with him and I give him the handout. That’s the little you know. This is a process I’d like to follow and he’s like I really hate handouts. He literally threw it to the side.
I’m not gonna do this and it’s like, uh, what do I do now? Yeah, so tell us like, what do we do then? Yes, triggered when someone’s triggered.
0:19:20 – Micah
You do, yeah, as soon as someone’s triggered, really that’s, and if you’re triggered too, you do emergency empathy and it’s so powerful, it’s so amazing, but it is challenging to do. When you need to do it, yes, but what you do is you guess how they feel and why. Because it’s just like this magical combo. It’s not just guess how they feel. Are you upset? That doesn’t work and we do that and that’s that’s better than insulting them. But, yes, when you do, are you like for your husband when he throws it away? You can say are you feeling um concerned that this is more of a trick than an actual useful thing? Or are you feeling concerned that this is a waste of time? Are are you um feeling upset because you’ve had bad experiences with nbc before? Are you feeling um suspicious because you think that maybe I’m trying to manipulate you by doing this into doing something you don’t want to do? Right and you don’t have to be?
Correct, but when you’re when you say, are you feeling this thing has to be a real feeling. It has to be correct. But when you say, are you feeling this thing? It has to be a real feeling, it has to be specific, or the more specific the better. It will prompt a response from them.
It’s so hard not to respond to a properly done emergency empathy when, if you just repeated yourself, they’re going to get more irritated If you say anything negative. If they’re already triggered and you say anything negative, they’re going to probably more irritated. If you say anything negative, if they’re already triggered and you say anything negative, they’re going to probably amplify like three times as yes, and then it’s a fight.
But if you use emergency empathy, it’s probably going to go down in intensity a little bit and it might like sometimes it just cracks it up if you actually get it right in the first one. You don’t got to get it right, you just have to be genuine and and and the key thing is no implication of you know, wrongdoing. You’re like are you upset because you don’t know how to talk to people and you don’t like working things out?
0:21:09 – Dr. Liz
it’s like that doesn’t work it’s like when I was doing a lot of work with couples. I still give this example. I say an I statement is not “I feel like you’re an asshole.”
0:21:18 – Micah
That’s not an I statement okay, it’s the same kind of thing right, yes, yeah that’s another trap. I feel like, or I feel as if those are all judgments, like when you say those are not feelings, those are all judgments yeah, yeah.
0:21:33 – Dr. Liz
So I hear it needs that because, on it like, are you feeling triggered because you’re feeling like you can’t do this process or you’re feeling controlled? A you would be you can’t do this process. I think that might. I don’t know. That’s on the border there, right.
0:21:52 – Micah
The trick is because words, you know it’s so amazing that Marshall’s name is Marshall because this is really the martial arts of words, because it is very nuanced, even even right then, when you say are you feeling, um, triggered? And then you slipped into the because you’re feeling this way, which is fine, but like what? What it’s really thinking? So are you feeling triggered because you think that you can’t get this, or you know that’s the more accurate way, because you’re not feeling like you can’t get it, but that’s how we all speak, yeah, but like, if you say thinking, because that’s more true, it’s like, oh, yeah, I’m thinking and that’s why we say, that’s why we use that whole feeling.
I feel like a lot of times people say I feel as if you’re not listening to me. Right, which is a judgment. But why do we speak like that? Because if we say I don’t think you’re listening to me, which is more honest and truthful, it’s less ground to stand on, it’s like it’s basically saying I have an opinion and my opinion is actually not that valuable, but if I say I feel, then it’s like this is a message from a higher source. So you shouldn’t, you should just know that it’s true.
0:22:55 – Dr. Liz
It’s hard to argue with someone saying I feel. You can’t tell me because then it goes in and you can’t tell me how I feel or not.
0:23:01 – Micah
I feel like you can’t tell me, because then it goes in and you can’t tell me how I feel or not exactly, so the more honest way is just I think I don’t think you listen to me, I don’t think you care about this. I I think you know, or I suspect, and that’s how it, just, that’s just the more it takes. It takes like a little practice and time, but yeah yeah, I like that.
0:23:15 – Dr. Liz
I suspect I like that. I suspect that you’re not listening to me. I I mean sometimes, if you ask the direct, are you listening to me? Then, depending on what’s going on, you may get a real reaction to that.
0:23:31 – Micah
Yeah, yeah, if they’re triggered, it’s probably. Yeah, it’s probably if they’re already triggered. Are you listening to me? Yeah, I’m listening to you. What do you know? But if you? Say you know but if you do the two part it’ll probably go down, you know.
0:23:40 – Dr. Liz
Okay, so give us the two part again, like, let’s say, you don’t feel like your partner’s listening to you and some triggering.
0:23:48 – Micah
You’re already at a certain level. That’s a little escalated or heated. So you could say, like, are you upset about something that I just said? Not a great one, but but it’s but it, but it’ll take it down a little bit, you know. I mean it’s better than almost anything else. You could say, like why are you so upset? That ain’t gonna work. You seem upset. It’s got a good question. You don’t want to tell them and that’s just subtle, right, like, like, this is an art. There’s no like 100 % and you can do it wrong and it still works. But, as you’re, when you practice, when you’re thinking about it, it’s just all about honing it in. So you don’t want to say you seem upset. No one wants to be told how they seem oh yeah, for sure yes allow them to be the expert.
When you say, are you upset because of this, you’re allowing them to be the expert. I like that too, because it sidesteps whether they’re listening or not.
0:24:36 – Dr. Liz
Are you upset about something I just said?
0:24:38 – Micah
Exactly, yeah, you wouldn’t even say that. Are you listening?
Because yeah you, they can say well, I really wasn’t listening, can you say it again, because I was thinking about something else you said that upset me, you know and if they’re not listening and but it’s not triggered yet, then you can do um nvc right, because you only need to do emergency empathy when they’re triggered, because nvc is used for fall. Get finding like drawing a boundary, okay, generally, you know, because there’s an issue, let’s, let’s find the solution. So if they weren’t listening, you could say hey, um, for the past like five minutes you looked at your phone many times and you’re like you’re staring the other way, you’re staring the other way um and I’m feeling frustrated because I really want to talk to you about this.
Um, do you understand where I’m coming from? That was all the four steps and that would be a connection based maybe, like oh, yeah, yeah, okay, my bad speaking yeah, okay, got it, got it.
0:25:37 – Dr. Liz
So, yes, it starts with that observable facts, yeah, and then moves on to, and then and then observable facts like so every, every step is nuanced, so the observable fact it doesn’t always.
0:25:50 – Micah
You want to sound natural, you don’t want to sound like you’re doing nvc when you’re doing nvc, because your partner is going to know that you’re doing NVC.
0:26:00 – Dr. Liz
I’m running this through my head and I’m like, okay, how do you sound natural, yeah.
0:26:04 – Micah
Yeah, so like I don’t, yeah, okay, so for observable facts, sometimes, like you can say okay, like like clear NVC would be like I’m noticing that the trash is filled to the brim and you know it’s like it’s overflowing. It’s like do you ever say I’m noticing? No, no, me either. So all of a sudden you’re using these different pronunciations like a high alert, um. But you say hey, babe, I can see that the trash is overflowing, um I’m feeling irritated because clean kitchen makes I’m just so it’s important to me.
I just can’t. I don’t, I don’t feel relaxed when the kitchen is clean. And you did say that you were going to empty the trash. Could you empty the trash in the next 10 minutes? That was like clear NVC every step, but it didn’t really sound, didn’t reek of NVC. You know what I mean.
Like whoa you’re doing something weird you know, like like two NvC would be, I’m noticing that the trash is overheated and I’m feeling slightly concerned because I have a need for a clean kitchen and I’m just wondering if you would be willing to take out the trash in the next few minutes.
0:27:10 – Dr. Liz
Not that it’s terrible, not that it wouldn’t work, but it’s just so clear that you’re not being just natural, natural, you and just speaking yes, and I, with me and my daughter, we sort of laugh about when we are doing nbc because we recognize it and so we find it humorous, which then just facilitates actually the connection between us and what we’re asking for. So if I’m saying something like, I remember the first we had listened to the podcast some and she would take her clothes off the hanger but leave the hanger in between the clothes, which made it harder for me to hang the clothes later Because then I have to search around for the hangers. So I said I used the NVC. I don’t remember the first statements I said. I said would you be willing to put the hanger at the end with the other empty hangers when you take, you know, an item off of it? And I think she said are you using NVC? And I said yes and she’s like yes, I’d be willing to. We both sort of laughed
0:28:18 – Micah
Isn’t that awesome, though, because that little things like that could turn into these big arguments that just build disconnection. And then, when you just actually are able to express yourself succinctly and they say, yes, it’s just like, it just feels like victory.
0:28:33 – Dr. Liz
You know, it’s just like it does, it does, and then you can do shorthand later, because she doesn’t always remember, and so later, later, I would say like hey, hangers and. And she says oh, yes yes, exactly, thank you. Thank you, actually thanking me for the reminder, instead of being like oh my God, my mom is nagging me, you know.
0:28:54 – Micah
I love NVC yeah.
0:28:57 – Dr. Liz
Yeah, it can really accomplish some things. What happens when someone just says no, they’re not willing?
0:29:06 – Micah
oh well, then you come up with another, so okay. So so say, are you willing to take out the trash in the next 10 minutes? They’re like no, I’m not going to. Like, you have several things.
Okay, you ask for clarity. Why would you not be willing to do that? Um, you know. And then you go deeper. Why wouldn’t someone want to do that? That would be the first thing. If they say no, you find out why. But if it’s another situation, you say okay, how about this possible solution? And they’re like no, it doesn’t work. And you go, okay, well, how about this possible solution? It doesn’t work. I would say you try for two or three, how about this possible solution? And then they’re probably gonna have some ideas. And if they have no ideas, and then you’ll be like okay, well, there’s this other issue of like why you can’t be that unwilling to work out this situation. Do you not care about my needs at all? Is it am I completely you know what I mean like it would lead into deeper things. Eventually, most likely, if they refuse three of you, they’ll probably have some kind of idea about what might work and you just go back and look for the win-win, you know okay.
0:30:09 – Dr. Liz
So if you’re not reaching some kind of resolution there, because it’s clear and I don’t know if it’s clear in the original book because I haven’t read it in a while, but I I read yours recently, reread it and it’s clear that your goal is not compromise, your goal is to get both people’s needs met. Yes, so if it’s not coming to that, then that’s a conversation I guess you can decide. Would you be willing to go away, brainstorm this, see if we can get both of our needs met?
0:30:42 – Micah
Yeah, would you be willing to go away brainstorm this, see if we can get both of our needs met? And the trick is generally like so we’re taught that compromise is a good thing but a compromise is not necessary. But what is necessary to not compromise is to truly understand what the core needs are. And a lot of times we don’t even know. We know that we’re upset and we don’t even. We might know, like we might know, surface level.
I’m upset because the toothpaste is always out, you know. But maybe the deeper thing is like sticking to your word, you know.
0:31:11 – Dr. Liz
Yeah, maybe the deeper thing is just um trust, like that’s the, so when we’re big ones.
0:31:13 – Micah
Yes, yeah, usually all the little things lead to something big down there, and so so when, when you’re trying to figure out a win-win and you’re struggling with it, it’s like you just want to clarify what the actual minimal need is. What is it? And then you go, okay, this is actually what I do need. And then the other person once you can really uncover that, then a win-win solution can be found. But when things are vague, then it’s like the two bigs Like I need all this.
It’s like do you really need all of that? How about if I just you know, do this part? Yeah, well, actually that would work. I don’t mind doing that, that’s not a problem. It’s this stuff, yeah. So just really just got to keep like funneling, like shaving down what the true needs are. And it’s the same thing for mediation. If you’re medi people that are arguing, then your first goal is just to find out what one person really needs and when the other person gets upset, just emergency empathy, emergency empathy, have them calm down go back when you can really uncover what is your actual, what do you, what do you truly need?
Okay, okay, good, now you all, right now, we’ve uncovered what the real needs are, let’s look for solutions.
0:32:16 – Dr. Liz
Okay, so what if those needs conflict Like they’re not sharing the same reality.
0:32:21 – Micah
Well, you have to go into examples, but generally, well, sometimes you know, sometimes, like in a relationship, too good communication means it’s time to break up, like maybe you know there’s some things that are. I want to have a baby. I don’t ever want to have a baby.
0:32:33 – Dr. Liz
Yes.
0:32:34 – Micah
Then maybe we should just break up. But if you didn’t talk, that could have been this vague assumption that they both had an erroneous assumption for years, until it’s time and they’re like, whoa, you don’t have a baby, no, like that’s a deal breaker. And now it’s like five years. So sometimes communication does make you break up and that’s that’s OK. Yeah, in the long run, that’s that’s what needed to happen.
0:32:55 – Dr. Liz
It’s true, I think people do. Sometimes they carry that vagueness or they think the person is going to change their mind or they can convince them. In fact, I was working recently with someone and they said, well, what if my partner just says no? And I said, well, you know, do you want to convince them? Like cause she was going into convincing kind of language and I was like, do you want to do that? And she’s like, actually I don’t, I don’t want to do that. That doesn’t make me feel good. So I said, okay, then we you know, we worked with it a little bit longer, but it’s like yeah, when you have a need like that, that’s just in direct conflict. Sometimes that is the case.
0:33:37 – Micah
Yeah.
0:33:37 – Dr. Liz
Or you make some agreements about how the relationship is going to move forward. I mean, I would see that sometimes you have to admit okay, our needs are in conflict here. If we want to stay together, then that’s something I have to handle. I can’t expect my partner to come to compromise with me.
0:33:53 – Micah
Yeah, I don’t ever want anybody to compromise. It doesn’t feel good, it just feels bad. It doesn’t feel like like he says in the the book, it’s like a lose lose. He’s like yeah, it’s like the, you know, going to the. In the book I think I used the analogy of like the part that the couple wants to go to a movie. The man wants to go, you know, some action movie and the woman wants a more sentimental movie and like they can’t.
They can’t figure out which one they want, so they just don’t go but like okay, but what is the so? So they can’t figure out. They’re trying to find which movie and they both just have the opposite things a movie. But what’s the deeper thing? Why are they going to the movies? They’re going to the movies to date each other to have fun. It’s not to go see a movie, it’s to go out. So how about let’s go ice skating? Oh okay, well, let’s go, you know, see a show, let’s go to a play, or let’s go like take a hike into it.
So let’s find something else that you know we can’t see the movie. That’s fine. It’s not about the movie. That’s why you go deeper and find what the real need is got it.
0:34:52 – Dr. Liz
If you don’t want to compromise?
0:34:53 – Micah
all right, let’s go see a movie that we both don’t won’t hate but don’t really want to watch. That’s horrible, like no, I don’t want to go see you know what I mean.
0:35:03 – Dr. Liz
That’s like a nice nap for me. I’m paying for a nap you know like I’ll fall asleep
0:35:05 – Micah
Uncomfortable, very uncomfortable nap.
0:35:12 – Dr. Liz
Yeah, it’s funny because I I heard this concept of. Well, I think I read about it years ago and you were talking we’re going way back. There’s a psychologist named Dr Harley and he wrote all these books about marriage and affair recovery and all kinds. He wrote a ton of books and he said in his book you don’t compromise when you’re trying to figure out what to do with your partner in terms of tasks, household tasks, this, how we handle things. You do not compromise, you keep going until you’re both 100% happy with the solution. And that just like blows people’s mind because they think, oh, marriage is about compromise. We hear that all the time I’m going to say partnership, partnership is about compromise. We hear that all the time I’m going to say partnership, partnership is about compromise. And to introduce the concept of actually it doesn’t have to be.
0:36:12 – Micah
What if it’s about getting 100% happy with the decisions? The caveat too is, though it doesn’t mean so like yeah, you don’t need to compromise, but also you can’t just stick to your one idea of something. No, I’m okay. Not compromise doesn’t mean no, I’m going to see an action movie and I’m gonna know. But you. Not compromise means you look for the solution that feels good until it feels good, but it doesn’t mean stick to this one idea. Like you know, be stubborn and be like no, no, this is, it has to be like this.
No yes not gonna help, but that’s true. Yeah, you want to find the solution that feels good. That’s what you do. So there is like some nuance to the the like agreed about compromise. That’s. That’s oversimplifying a bit and that’s why we get confused like, oh it’s, you know, it’s about compromise it is and it isn’t you know, it’s true, I think that takes some time too, so it may not be solved in that one conversation.
0:37:05 – Dr. Liz
It’s like let’s come back to this until we can figure out a solution that we’re both happy with yeah?
0:37:12 – Micah
and then the work you do on that. You go away and then let’s find out what do I really need? What is like the deepest thing that I need? And that’s the work you do on your own. When you come back to me, have some more clues and it’s then it’s easier to navigate, whatever the issue is.
0:37:25 – Dr. Liz
Yes, yeah, true. Well, we are coming to the end of our time here and it’s been a pleasure to actually talk to you in person. I’ve listened to you for many years, love your voice, love your examples and how you work through the processes. So can you tell people how to find the podcast, how to find you if they want to work with you? Do you still offer privates, or? Yeah, yeah you have your course.
0:37:48 – Micah
I saw that’s still up and running yeah, I have a course, so I have a website, the art art of nbccom.
okay, and I have a podcast, the art of nbc, where you know pretty much all podcasts are available we’ve got a youtube channel with a few things, but mostly it’s the podcast, and then, yeah, on my website, you can sign up for private lessons and I also do a once a month practice group for people who just want to brush up and so, yeah, take people through scenarios, yeah, and that’s uh, you can. There’s a link on my website, but I do that through patreon, okay, how many people are in that typically Usually? Maybe like four, like two to four people, sometimes five six, so it’s a small group.
0:38:26 – Dr. Liz
Yeah, it’s a small group. Okay, so someone could show up and expect to get some practice in it.
0:38:31 – Micah
Yeah, absolutely. Usually it’s like work through one 10 to 15-minute scenario and then you’d be a partner with somebody else. So someone else would be like doing NVC and a partner won’t be. And I’ll give you a scenario. I’ll be like, I’ll like send a message, like okay, this is, this is what’s happening on the surface, but this is why you’re acting like that, and then the other person will have to use NVC to get through it. And it’s really fascinating how real these little scenarios will make your emotional body feel.
0:38:55 – Dr. Liz
You’re like it’s like you’re on the spot.
0:39:00 – Micah
It can be intense Not like crazy intense but it is great practice. So I think that’s really if you want to get good at NBC anybody you need to understand the concepts and then work these scenarios and then you have a good chance of being able to use it in real life to a good effect.
0:39:17 – Dr. Liz
I think that’s a really excellent point, because often when someone jumps right into it and they’re new to it and then disaster happens, they’re like it didn’t go anyway, like I thought it was going to go, and then they give it up versus no, let’s get some practice, in particularly with an expert like you, and go through the scenarios and, yeah, let’s see what could happen here, and then you feel I think for me I would feel calmer about that headed into a conversation that I know is difficult yeah, because.
0:39:48 – Micah
Yeah, because when you first do nvc and the other person’s triggered, you’re probably gonna get it wrong and it’s probably gonna actually be like a little worse like than if you had it. I mean, is this the truth? You know, unless you are practiced because you’re gonna say you’re you’re going to like subtly imply they’re bad and wrong and you won’t even know it and you think you’re not, but you will Because it’s hard not to. It takes practice.
0:40:07 – Dr. Liz
Yeah, yeah. Or for me. Sometimes I freeze Like what’s the next step? When am?
0:40:15 – Micah
I supposed to sit to you.
0:40:15 – Dr. Liz
I know you have to get deer, or you just sit here like what’s going on over there?
0:40:22 – Micah
nothing, I’m listening to you, I promise you’re gonna do a fill of words like okay, thank you for sharing that. What is?
0:40:35 – Dr. Liz
it exactly, so thank you so much for being here absolutely.
0:40:41 – Micah
This is fun. I enjoyed it very much. Yes, me too I’m glad she’s been enjoying the company. I will I will.
0:40:46 – Dr. Liz
I wish she was here and could have popped in and said hello to you, but she’s off at her boyfriend’s house living her life, yeah, so thank you so much, thank you.
Transcribed by https://podium.page
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